Friday, April 16, 2010

Bloodwing: A Second Bloodlook

Ok, so I posted my initial Bloodwing list here.  Not a lot of real critical thought went in to it, mostly because I was sticking blood every bloody where til it got blood bloodiculous.  See?

So, after some more thoughts and playtesting, here's my updated version.

Bloodwing, for the uninitiated, is a Blood Angels army featuring Dante and Sanguinary Guard as Troops.  Sanguinary Guard have a 2+ save, power weapons across the board, jump packs and a funky bolt pistol.  Unlike Terminators they have no real firepower outside of 12" or any invulnerable save to speak of, plus only 1 powerfist per unit, but they do get infernus pistols, master-crafted power swords, jump packs and, subsequently, Descent of Angels.  Dante isn't the best fighter due to a critical lack of Eternal Warrior or any invul better than 4+, but he does have a BS5 infernus pistol and 4 very useful abilities.  Dante makes Sanguinary Guard Troops, so we get these durable and killy, if pricey units as our main scorers.  He also doesn't scatter when Deep Striking, and neither does the unit he's with.  That's pretty awesome considering the short ranged SG and DoA armies in general deal with.  Finally, he gives his unit Hit & Run, so they can jump away from bad assaults and turn into the super Fiend unit from hell. 

So, building an army around these guys already has me leaning a certain way.  All jump packs and DoA most of the time.  Well, how do you make a good normal DoA army?  Redundancy is a big one, because even with a 75% chance of getting a particular unit on turn 2, you can never be sure.  Melta is a must to pop armor, infantry killing is important, and the FNP/FC bubble is essential.  SG can sport meltas, all dish out power weapon attacks, and SHPs are easy to come by.  Doesn't sound to bad, yeah?

Sanguinary Guard have a big achilles' heel too, namely MCs and plasma.  Any AP2 shooting will fuck them up.  So, we need a way to mitigate that.  Shield of Sanguinius provides cover, but only a 5+.  What other jump pack unit can absorb AP2 shots pretty well, or at least force my opponent to think about his target priority?  Honor Guard and Vanguard.  Both units can get storm shields and are a big threat due to impressive HtH prowess or just special weapon spam in case of the HG.  HG and VV also fill a big gap in an army of just SG.  HG give me actual melta range, 12" so I don't have to be so risky with DS and won't be forced to use Dante to get in the exact perfect position.  VV can drop and chop on bubblewrap, limiting my opponent's ability to effectively tarpit me with crap like guardsmen or kroot (jump packs help too).

Problem?  Well, everything costs a shit ton of points.  I'm also going to have a real shortage of bodies, like Deathwing level low.  But, everything is really tough with either 3+, 3+/3++ or 2+ with FNP more often than not.

Let's see what I can do.

Duh, gotta have him for this to work
Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
Blood Lance is another effective counter to castling and can soften up tougher troops while Shield of Sanguinius is purely defensive.  Unleash Rage is an option too, but we'll see how this works out.
2x Honor Guard - jump packs, 3 meltaguns, 2 flamers, 2 storm shields, 1 powerfist
Hot damn, 540 points for 10 guys!  Dante and the Libby each join a squad, partly to force decisions from my opponent and partly to best benefit from the character's awesomeness.  Squads are set up with everyone unique, so F/SS, MG/SS, MG/F, PF/M.

Ha ha, just kidding, they're all Troops

Sanguinary Guard - 2 infernus pisols, powerfist, Chapter Banner
A big bubble of bonus attacks?  Hell yes!  This set up for SG has maximum flexibility with 2 meltas, 6 bolter shots, 4 MC PW and a fist to add a deterrent to Dreads (if the melta wasn't enough)
2x Sanguinary Guard - 2 infernus pistols, powerfist
Ok, so only 3 scoring units, but look at them.  2+ with FNP most likely is pretty tough, jump packs and DoA let them get where they need to be, and the mix of bolters, inferni, powerfist and power weapons makes them capable against most anything.

Fast Attack
2x Vanguard - 5, jump packs, thunder hammer, lightning claw
No invulnerables here, but they can drop in and fuck up a lot of stuff just chilling out.  I forget if I can buy single melta bombs, but if so I'd drop down from a TH.  These guys are really a diversion unit, encouraging my opponent to castle up so I can punish him or put inordinate amounts of fire into them instead of the important stuff.

Total: 2000

So, that's a Bloodwing, Chumby style.  I'm not totally set on it, just because of the crazy short range, hilariously tiny amount of models, and the critical weakness to AP2 shit.  Any input would be greatly appreciated TKE, Stelly, BroLo, Raptor, MVB, Kirbs, and whoever else I forgot :P  I also need to get some more playtests in, so if anybody wants to throw down over Vassal let me know, if you can put up with my utter noobishness.


The_King_Elessar said...

You can indeed buy those Single Malt Whiskeys.

My captcha: Scomp - an abbreviation of subjective Comp, or Comp that is used by a bunch of fucktards and dickfisters. ;)

Jwolf said...

It's the sort of army I really like to play with - all in your face and to hell with dying.

I think you can win a lot of games with these sorts of armies, if only because they low model count forces you to get good at them, and there are a lot of nasty tricks you can do that you will need to get 20+ games in to get down.

The good news is you can get 20 games in with an army like this in a weekend, no problem.

Chumbalaya said...

I think TKE's in the wrong thread :P

jwolf, I love armies like these. Deathwing, Loganwing, TWC, Ravenwing and so on. A paltry handful of models compared to my Orks, but that just makes it that much more challenging and lets me get more focus on each individual model. With cheap plastic Termies, Chaos Knights and Sangy Guard I can make them on the cheap too :D

Kirby said...

You forgot me <3. And I only just figured out what your display pic was lol.

I think the VV need a pistol or two each in case there is nothing to assault otherwise some m-bombs and would tune down the wargear on the HG.

I think when you compare this to a 'standard' jumper list w/ASM you lose out on your initial drop of meltaness but to anyone w/o plasma you give a huge hug to.

I'd prefer the ASM style Jumper list but I think this is a nice deviation with some work. *pats chumby*

Forget me again and I shall paint your blog pink.

Venerable said...

Just a quick thought...clearly this has very low numbers, but with things like Chapter Banners you can still put out a wicked number of CC attacks, especially any unit Dante is attached to...

And you have a lot of melta.

But no real flame/dakka bar the SG BloodGun's (trying to ape your bloody style...bloody poorly)..

Now I'm not suggesting the shit that is hand flamers...

But how about a change to the have alot of melta to pop vehicles, how about Fear The Bloody Darkness (or whatever its called)? Instead of Blood Lance?

Just make those high numbers, more often than not low LD units run off the board?

Quicker than actually killing them...

Man, that was long winded for one suggestion. Bloody sorry!

The_King_Elessar said...

I meant Melta Bombs. Duh... :p

Chumbalaya said...

I don't know what you're talking about Kirbs, I totally remembered you :D

Hordes could potentially cause problems, but they have a tough time handling 2+ with FNP. Everything here should have FC and most have power weapons. Both HG have multiple flamers too, should they be necessary.

0range said...

Is 2 Blood Chalices of Blood really enough? I feel like it could benefit from Sanguinary Priests, but then again, seeing as how it's me, that probably doesn't mean much

Chumbalaya said...

I originally had multiple SHP, but I found that it's hard to fit them in pointswise. They are very useful, but I have to have an army for them to buff. HG fit in nicely for me because they give me a discount SHP in addition to multiple meltas/flamers I can't get elsewhere.

Xaereth said...

Hey there, I saw a link to your blog from somewhere else and figured I'd check it out. I play Blood Angels too, and have my own blog, but figured I'd leave some feedback for you here.

First I want to say that the idea for this army is cool. I really like Dante and the SG, and I'm glad that people are trying to make lists based on them. Lots of mobility everywhere, and lots of melta make this list scary to a number of armies.

That being said (as has already been said), this is for sure a finesse army. Not only do you have to MAKE SURE you get the charge, you also have to make sure you're always within the 6" bubble the 2 priests give you.

I think the thing that is missing is more sanguinary priests. If you really want tactical diversity, you're going to have to be able to land more than 2 places at once. The FNP is what makes the 2+ save so good, since even one stray failed save is going to damage the output of your squads by quite a bit.

Otherwise, it looks good (without having ever really seen a similar list being played). I'll have to check back in to see what ends up happening.

I also kinda don't think the banner gives a 'bubble' effect. If you check the wording, it says 'models in the unit' get the +1 attack. Dunno if that's what you were saying in the first place though. Also, does the Librarian have a jump pack? It doesn't say that in the list, figured I'd ask.

Chumbalaya said...

Yes, the Librarian has a jump pack and yes, I'm dumb about the Chapter Banner. 1 unit it is, dammit.

Thanks for writing. I love the idea of the elite armies, and while I know it'll be a challenge, it looks like a lot of fun.

I would like to fit in more FNP, but I'm having a hard time finding points. I could drop 1 unit of VV, pimp out the other and add SHP.

Care to share a link to your place? I'd be happy to cross-pollinate (no homo).

Xaereth said...

Sure, it's:

It's a pretty small blog, happy to have people read it though. I certainly appreciate feedback :)

As a sidenote, I'm not sure at all if it would make the points work, but you might be able to make a 10-man VV squad for pretty cheap, then combat squad them. That's only one reserve roll you have to make, and you're at least saving 15points on the 'initial startup' cost of a VV squad, if you don't care a TON about the power sword (you can always buy it back for another model anyways, since it's the same cost). In a KP mission, having that extra option to combat squad or not might come in handy too, you never know.

Chumbalaya said...

Combat Squads split when you deploy, so each half would have to be rolled for separately. I think I may take a pimped out VV squad and grab another SHP or two.

Happy to share linkage, getting more folks in on discussions is always good.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for such a delayed response Chumb! Kudos for including me, I feel so loved! <3 Ping! BTW it was pretty dumb to ask, because everything from this point forth will probably be totally useless and should be deleted, preferably before being read and wasting precious brain cells - and yours are vanishing quickly with all of that alcohol!

My first thought is your mental. 37 guys for 2000 points! It will be fun at the very least.

My main concerns are with regards to the out-fitting of the squads and the lack of sanguinary priests.

WRT out-fitting. The guys that are going to drop spot-on are the only guys that offer any melta range. Everything else, needs to hope for the best when it comes to deep-striking. Perhaps drop Dante into one of the sanguinary guard units, to give you a bit more melta reliability.

I think the honour guard units are a little overkill. On a unit that is only 5 strong, has just 2 members with inv save and 1 I1 power weapon, I think you'll be saying goodbye to 270 points pretty quickly, FNP or not.

With the FC bubble, I think the benefits of PWs start to outweigh those of fists. If you can't assault the turn you arrive, you're lose a moajor benefit of the fist and if you haven't popped something in 2 turns of shooting your Infernus pistols, what are you going to do with a fist? The only thing that you have to worry about is MCs, but I would rather drop a good distance from it, jump in next turn, take my shots at it and then pile in with I5 S5 master-crafted power weapons.

I would agree with you about throwing an MB into the VV unit to give them some more wound allocation shenanigans and a tiny bit more reliability to pop those transports.

WRT SHPs - I know they're expensive at 75 points a pop (with JP only - 105 with PW/IP). But I think they would make a huge difference. Taking 2 over perhaps one of the honour guard + a smidgin of frugality would leave enough points for a standard assault squad, so no loss of numbers, the same amount of melta (3 MGs, vs 1MG/2IPs) and you get an extra 6" bubble to be sure everybody has FC/FNP.

As a regular beneficiary of furious charge, it is worth it's weight in gold (or even honour guard). If that 6" bubble includes the VVs, coupled with your chapter banner, and they're equipped with some PW/Claws, then you need not worry what you are assaulting, they will bend it over a terrain piece and penetrate its inner ring!

Anyway, just my take.

Ha Ha - the word verification is 'rimmed'

Anonymous said...

Oh, and I'd be mad keen for some Vassal action. I'll let you get used to it and then you can teach me :)

Chumbalaya said...

Thanks for weighing in BroLo.

I put Dante with the HG so I can be sure I get a good FNP bubble, also so I can use flamers more effectively. I see your point to putting him in the SG, so I will do it and pretend it was my idea. Best part, I can switch out depending on my opponent.

Do you think I would be better served specializing my separate units? HG = special weapon beds and SHP bubble, SG kick out massed S5 power weapon attacks, and VV can tank it up with SS and powerfists.

We can test it out on vassal :P

Anonymous said...

FNP bubble = win! That's why I think an extra bubble will go down a treat!

I personally think specializing the units per say will be a bad idea. Well, specializing into anti-mech/anti-infantry that is. I think versatility is the way, but the question is how do you achieve it.

I've never been a fan of a flamer in a unit with meltas. In you case lets look what could happen...

1) You drop next to a transport. You shoot your melta and pop the vehicle. Well you can't assault (unless your VV buddies have dropped next to you and do you a favour), and the flamer adds nothing.

2) You drop next to a vehicle and fail to pop the transport with your melta. You can't assault the vehicle and you curse yourself for taking the flamer when you could have had a melta.

3) Either of the above. Next turn, the guys either de-bus/move, shoot and assault you, in which the flamer adds nothing, or the guys stay in their transport and get well away from your mini-melta range (good luck).

Flamers are superb when your dropping next to a big nasty horde, but when does this happen outside of playing daemons or 'nids. Please don't say footdar or foot-slogging orksies! For all other scenarios, melta is your BFF.

In terms of specialised units, I wonder why you have chosen SG for the PWs and the VVs for tanking? Serious question.

I think I would do it the other way. I've not played it, but my theoryhammer head would say the VVs are a better PW unit. Why?

Both units can take a sh*t ton of PW/PF/IPs. But with heroic intervention you're going to rely on your VVs to pick-up where the SG/HG left off and either assault the newly de-bussed infantry or assault the transport that your SG/HG didn't pop, but hopefully immobilised (remember, you don't have to declare what you're going to assault, just that you're going to do it).

So, placing Dante with SG (+hopefully chapter banner) and a SHP, they drop within perfect melta distance, the VVs with PWs-a-plenty and a couple of melta bombs just in case drop within assault range (weight those dice if you have to ;p) and you're safe as houses.

VVs will get more attacks on the charge, can get lightning claws for the same price as PWs (although you lose the attack benefit, you get to wound re-rolls-useful for MCs) and they're still cheaper.

Like I said before, I think when you have I5 and S5 on the charge, powerfists lose their bling (not that they're particularly blingy anyway). I'd take S5 power weapon attacks before attacks at me, than S8 ones after any day of the week. MBs would be my staple for CC tank-popping.

But like I said, that's theory hammer, not 40k, I'm probably talking out of my backside and would glady be told where I fail.