Monday, April 12, 2010

Response to TKE

TKE put up an excellent analysis of my Hybrid BA list.  Rather than clutter up his comment section with my super long reply, I'll just put it up here just so you readers at home have to keep even more tabs up, fuckers.

Whoa, I'm famous.  Not feelings hurt brah, I'm touched you would take the effort to look at this with a real critical eye.  <3

Emo marines sulk and saunter, just for clarification.

SHPs can't fit pistols because I only had 10 points to spare, hence the melta bombs.  I like toys too, but you can't have any beer until your finish your tequila ;)

I've got sponsons for dakka really.  My assault marines can't reach out and touch somebody across the board, but I can slap them with my Baals no problem.  Baals are in mostly because I wanted that tasty AV13 and sponsons are in because of dakka.  S5 isn't much, but 6 S5 shots apiece combined with the AC can hurt or at least suppress light armor, plus any side armor I can get a piece of.  I've got 6 of the things, losing 1 or 2 wouldn't be too harsh.  And any fire going after Preds is the kind of fire you'll typically need to drag down my RAS.  That's kinda the point of the whole list, everything is pretty much immune to small arms and medium S heavy weapons.

Normal Preds go for the tougher stuff of course.  They really are both dual role, but the Baals lean more towards anti-infantry/light armor while normal Preds have their own wheelhouse.  

I put in sponsons because I want mo' shooting really.  Preds are maneuverable enough that I can draw a bead on what I need to and since I don't have to worry about Rhinos and Razors crowding the board I've only got RAS to block LoS and they won't be giving cover to other tanks, usually.  Baals can scout too, so I can make plenty of room if I need it.

I like hybrid style lists for a couple reasons.  I like versatility, and an army like this has a lot of options just in how it plays.  I can stay off board and use DoA, I can combat squad, I can castle, and so on.  I may lose out on 18" move versus a 12", but full on mech lists can't even use DoA.  Full DS lists can overload the board with targets, but I can get that extra 6" of movement, castle up, or stay off board.  Lots of angles I can work at here.  

I like hybrids that don't suck.  If you wanted to do this with the vanilla book I'd slap you around the head.  BA, IG and SW can pull off armies like this and I like that.  Vehicles are tough, but infantry are squishy, so mixing the two rarely ends well.  If I can field infantry that are either unsquishy (T5, FNP, stubborn blobs), capable of keeping up with armor (jump packs, cav movement) and/or able to do plenty of damage (FCing assault marines, TWC, lots of guns) then I'm happy.  Infantry and vehicles have different weakness and strengths, units that are hybrid-friendly are able to mitigate these weaknesses while maximizing their strengths and meshing together.  Normal Assault Marines are not very tough, have no melta and don't hit hard.  BA RAS fix all that, plus give them reliable DS.  Now what hurts infantry doesn't hurt them as much, it'll take AT fire to really threaten them.  Well, I've got 6 tanks over here too, so how much AT did you bring?    Another thing RAS do better than RAS in Rhinos is they have a much bigger effective assault range.  They don't have to sit and wait, they just hop right in.  Obviously, Rhino squads trade that for their extra layer of protection, but FNP is plenty resilient yes?  This also applies to TWC and SM Bikes, also IG infantry due to their sheer numbers and fun stuff like allies and orders.  

I like armies that don't kill my bank account, and cutting back on my Rhino buying is very helpful.  This doesn't get brought up much, but I'm not made of money.  This hybrid, buying all new, would cost around $420.  A mech list like the one MVB proposed (or I did before) would cost a good deal more.  I'm all about cutting costs without cutting the competitive edge.

I also like being a snowflake, building something a bit different from the established "norm".  Call me zany, but I like playing my Loganwing, Bloodwing, hybrids, and the like.  It's not to throw people off or upset the metagame or any kind of BoLShit like that, it's just me putting my own spin on stuff to keep it viable but still unique.

But, I'm rambling like crazy, so let me get back to the actual list.

If I were to drop the sponsons and go for Riflemen, I'd have 135 points free.  Even if I dropped Mephiston for a normal Libby I couldn't do much with 260 points, or at least enough that I'd see a big change.  I could pick up two RAS in Razorbacks (las/plas) if I dropped the infernus and melta bombs.  2 lascannons, 2 TL plasma guns on a fast platform gives me a pair cheap scoring units and help replace the lascannons I lost.   I'd have less melta, more tanks but with less AV, and I'd lose my mini-MC.  All in all, I'd say it would be a bit of a wash.  Razorbacks aren't the toughest cookies in the jar, and I wouldn't have as much of the "wow" factor as if I had Mephiston and 6 AV13 vehicles.  I'd love to be able to fit in Librarian Dreads, but nothing really sticks out as worth throwing out.

Rhino Squads, MVB style, would also be an option.  They would bring some melta bunkers to help stop stuff like Land Raiders, plus 2 smoking Rhinos holding it down at midfield could bring the pressure on my opponent.  Hell, I could bring a couple more of those for not much pointswise.

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius


2x RAS, 10 men, 2 meltas, powerfist
4x RAS, 5 men, melta, infernus, power weapon, Rhino

Fast Attack
3x Baals w/ TLAC

Heavy Support
3x Rifleman Dreads

That's 1995 and may even be better than the original.  4 Rhinos zoom up to midfield with smoke or Shield up, Preds and Dreads move in as support to bring down armor, and RAS follow up as the hybrid element smashy.  I could even bring back Mephiston in exchange for a Rhino RAS.  If I were going full mech, I'd swap the RAS for HG or flying Dreads, but with the RAS here I don't have to rely on getting Wings off, I've got plenty of melta, and I have 20 FNP FC marines that can quickly respond and assault, DoA if needed, and generally be the flexible core that I can put to good use.

Christ, that was epic.  Happy TKE?  Look what you did!  Thanks for making me do more thinking, dickhead.  Well, that's my brain for today.  Lemme know what you think, I'm always up to get more lively discussion going.

I'm gonna go get drunk for my birthday tomorrow, and with my new knee brace I can do whatever I want!  


Venerable said...

Interesting folded bitch! Where have the sponsons gone! Where is your dakka dakka dakka gone! Dude... :)

OK, fair shout on the changes with just a few thoughts;

- I'd drop the 4th RAS/Rhino for Mephy...purely for the 'Holy Shit' psychological factor and because he'll cause just as much,if not a ton more damage.

- The riflemans have great range and light armour popping/medium armour suppressing fire, but are they not very slow for this list?
With rhino bunkers in midfield and JP dudes in the enemies face, Baals scouting and streaking (do they relly streak when moving just 12", probably not...) at oblique angles for side armour shots...are the Riflemen not going to be stuck in the backfield unsupported? Easy prey for other DS'ing units, fast, outflanking units...any units really that deploy/enter the fray using what Fritz calls the 5th board edge. Because lets not forget, anything you can do, the enemy can do (better?)!

-What do you leave on objectives to babysit? The Riflemen and a RAS/Rhino? The rest are aggresively taking over the obj's elsewhere on the board. Soft home target no? (Iknow FNP would keep them more survivable, but aren't the SHP up with the Jump Boys? And one AV11 wrapping to keep them warm...)Sure you have the speed to redeploy and get back to defend quickly, but once you have abandoned your assault, or at least diluted its strength...what about all the men who gave their lives in vain for that obj assault? Dammit man! lol.

Sorry, I know that is long winded for 3 simple thoughts! I like the list, just trying to instigate further thought.

Enjoy your birthday dude. Go crazy with the knee brace...well, not too crazy hey, its only a brace, not an actual knee!


Chumbalaya said...

I didn't cave, I just offered alternatives :P I'm not married to sponsons, yet.

-I hear that a lot, and Mephy is always fun. Nothing is written in stone yet, so he may well make an appearance.

-Riflemen give up overall mobility for a reliable 4 shots per turn. 48" is a lot of area. Baals can line up side shots easy, but the Riflemen will be supporting the assault just by sitting in cover and blasting away, or trying to get obscured by Rhinos/Preds. I can also line up the Preds side by side and hide the Dreads behind 'em while still shooting.

-Like I tend to do with a lot of my lists, it's much easier to grab objectives when everything is dead. 4 fast Rhinos can bring dudes to hold objectives. If I do go for Mephy, I can swap a Rhino for a Razor maybe, or just pick up an HG. Everything in here is capable of moving 18" in one turn, so I can always peel off if it's already over.

No drinking until at least 11, I have to be somewhat reasonable, yes? ;)

Kirby said...

"I also like being a snowflake, building something a bit different from the established "norm". Call me zany, but I like playing my Loganwing, Bloodwing, hybrids, and the like. It's not to throw people off or upset the metagame or any kind of BoLShit like that, it's just me putting my own spin on stuff to keep it viable but still unique."

Do you enjoy the BLOOD RODEO!? hehe.

You doubled posted the RAS btw, the 10 men are ASM yes? lol I think this works better more in lieu of a standard Vanilla list gone hybrid (thus BA style). Your Preds/Dreads can stay back and play suppression fire or the Baals can provide AV13 screening. The rhinos rush to midfield more melta coverage and the ASM trundle up behind. I think you could drop the Baals for Typhoons (hiding behind the dreads for perma cover) and then perhaps play around with those extra points but I think it works better than what you had before where it felt like the ASM were just an after-thought to 6 preds.

Chumbalaya said...

As a matter of fact, I did enjoy the Blood Rodeo. That's the kind of innovation I love to see.

I was figuring the same thing with the new version. It's a mech list at the core, but adds the two big ASM squads that can fill a bunch of different roles: DS attack, bubblewrap, mop up that isn't dependent on transports, and the like.

Typhoons are an option, but I like the AV13 wall in addition to scout moves. Typhoons do more damage for sure and they could be used as movement blockers if need be, but I feel that would reduce my threats coming towards midfield.

Thanks for your thoughts, they're crunchy.

The_King_Elessar said...


Good response. I can't argue with a desire to save money, and I can't argue that you definitely couldn't get enough Dakka out without playtesting 6 Preds.

I just wanted to make sure you thought it would work.

I'm going to post an AV13 Full Mech wall later - see what you think of it. :)

Brother Loring said...

I'm not sure which blog to post this on, so I'll go with both.

I'm not overly keen on the sponsons, but they do add something else. Presumed threat. If was facing a few Baals going round with AssCans only, yeah, I want to clear them, but they can wait. The small addition of HB sponsons makes me think... 'if one of my transports goes boom, this guy is gonna ass-rape the guys inside' and he suddenly goes up my 'get rid of quickly' list.

I don't think the dreads take away from the speed of the list, you're not really going to want to move the AC/LC preds more than 6", otherwise the expensive sponsons are a waste. I do think you drop a significant punch changing the preds to riflemen though. Without the las, you have pretty much no ability to hurt AV14 turn one.

Great set of posts anyways guys. This is really great cross-critique without the cock-measuring! I'd like to see more of this!

Chumbalaya said...

Well, everyone knows my dick is huge, so there's no need to compare :P

I like sponsons on most anything that can have 'em. Sure a couple HB shots aren't going to blow up armor or kill infantry in droves, but an extra 6 S5 shots per Baal can surprise you.

You do raise a good point on the lascannon bit, but generally I find that throwing lascannons at a Land Raider is like trying to kill a big dude with a rock. Sure you'll get lucky once or twice and go down into the annals of history as the ultimate underdog, but often enough you're wasting time.

A LR army needs their support, and generally S7 works just fine at messing them up. That LR will have to contend with a shitload of melta at midfield or possibly DS-ing, so unless they are all AV14 my Dreads and Baals will still get use. When I've got 7 other vehicles driving around, it will be harder for Preds to get shots lined up, but Dreads have no problem. They're both good, it's just a tradeoff thing.

The_King_Elessar said...

If they were all AV14 then Ramming may be the best bet.

Brother Loring said...

I'd rather go at a big person with a rock than a pea-shooter though!

I do like the thought of ramming! Perhaps not used enough?? An interesting though as BA fast vehicles can do some serious damage. BA rhinos - Str 8 (10 on a road) and a pred Str 10. Interesting... sacrificial rhinos/razors and cheap preds!

Chumbalaya said...

It's less about going after the giant himself as it is cutting him off at the knees. Kill the support and a single or even dual Raider is a lot less harder to deal with. But hey, you raise a good point, having the option of doing damage is never a bad thing.

Ramming eh? Well, if it isn't Deff Rollas (the bestest power evar! Death of mech!) it isn't super totally awesome. I like the idea of guided missiles for 15 points :P